AM: So you turned 80 this year

TW: Did I? It’s a malicious rumour.

AM: Ha! But you still perform with a freshness and vigour that would put many a younger performer to shame. How do you do it?

TW: First thing is, I practise every day and still try and get better and better, mainly because it gives me the facility to play what’s in my head at any given moment, and to serve the music and my companion players. And I live on top of a hill, which keeps me fit!

AM: And you show no signs of taking it easy. Tell us about some of the things we’ve got to look forward to in 2019.

TW: I have a couple of very exciting possibilities this year. In July, I’m the guest artist at a festival in Cartaxo in Portugal, playing with Portuguese musicians. They are hosting me in a way that is quite unusual, which shows their appreciation for my involvement in this music over the years, and how much they value my visit, which is very touching for me. It’s one concert, but they have asked me to be there for five days so that they can show me the area and I can integrate into the community of players I’ll be performing with. 

AM: Star treatment! It’s a sad truth that there’s always been a bigger and more appreciative audience for the music outside the UK.

TW:  Yes, that seems to be true. I have another invitation for December 2019, which came from Salvador do Bahia in Brazil. I am a guest with one of the major Afro-Brazilian drumming groups there – which they are world renowned for.  It’s a real honour, and confirmation for all those years I put in with my Moiré Music Drum Orchestra, and related collaborations such as with Teatro Negro de Barlovento (the Black Theatre Drumming and music group) of Venezuela in 1993. 

The visit is two weeks long, and I’ll be working out with them how to weave my saxophone lines within their drum tapestry. We’ll also be doing some recording and playing in Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. And on top of that, LISTEN FOUNDATION, a recording company based in Warsaw, wants to issue a 5 CD boxed set of my music this year. 

AM: What about closer to home?

TM: I’ll be playing at the London Jazz Festival in November. I have a quartet at the Purcell Room in the Royal Festival Hall, with John Edwards (Bass), Mark Sanders (Drums) and Veryan Weston (Piano). That’s probably going to be Saturday November 16th 2019.

AM: It’s bizarre that you’re playing all over the planet, but we don’t often get to see you in Hastings!

TW: Well, we used to pack out the old George Street Hall with the Drum Orchestra! I’m a very eclectic musician. I love and have been influenced by all genres of music, and all of that knowledge goes into everything I do. I have no prejudices in that respect. But it does mean I often fall through the cracks with promoters, as to whether the music is Jazz, Folk, World or Improv. I realise that they have to sell tickets. I’m happy with that. I do exactly what I want, and take that risk. As you see, it’s got both positives and negatives. Like life itself!

AM: Free improv has this reputation in some quarters of being demanding and inaccessible. But when I saw you play live last year I was absolutely gripped by every note. Could more be done to bring the music to a wider audience?

TW: People who say – oh it’s not for me! – I just think they miss a lot of fun. I like a music where I have to work at it, and which takes my full concentration individually or within the collective, because I feel engaged. It feels more interactive. It gives me energy.

AM: Trevor – it has been a delight to talk to you. Thank you very much.

TW: Thank you! You’ve been a great interviewer. Anyone who does it over a couple of pints has my vote.

• Check out Trevor’s music on Soundcloud, Youtube and Spotify. Or contact Trevor directly on trevor510@googlemail.com
• A Wider Embrace is available from ECM records.

• Read part one of this interview here
• Read part two of this interview here

AM: We spoke last time about the open-minded spirit of the 1960s. But you did encounter outright hostility from time to time?

TW: When Julie Driscoll (Tippett) left the pop scene she didn’t sing for a couple of years. Locked herself away. John Stevens found her and asked her if she’d like to try some improvising, and she did her first experiments with us. This was in 1972. Her manager was still around and interested and got us a gig at the Palermo POP Festival in Sicily.  It was held in a football stadium. Half the crowd perhaps were expecting Wheels on Fire, but we were playing improvised music together at that time. Half the crowd started to throw dirt wrapped in newspaper. The other half cheering and chanting JULIE, JULIE! It’s the only time I’ve been locked in a dressing room after the gig for our own safety. Much more exciting than now. It’s all gone a bit bland again and overly respectful.

AM: There’s a video of the same group up on YouTube (with Ron Hermann, John Stevens, Julie Driscoll). I love the way it starts off sparse and tentative, and then builds up. As if everyone’s feeling their way towards something. 

TW: Also if you think about Indian classical music, they usually start slow and build. It’s quite a natural thing to do in music that is not there for entertainment as being the first thing, but trying for a more profound experience. Eventually something else takes over. A collective consciousness. With improv, we aim to get in touch very much with our intuitive side of things and be as much ‘in the moment’ as you can. Thinking consciously is a much slower process. 

AM: Can it ever be completely free though?

TW: Well, in the early days we did actually develop very strict rules to a certain extent. One of the rules was, you don’t play linear. Dots and dashes. Pointillistic music.

AM: No tunes!

TW: Absolutely no tunes! It was useful at the time to play within those self-restricting boundaries. I always think freedom comes from a sense of discipline, so to speak, or how else would you recognise it?

AM: How do you know who starts it?

TW: You could equally say ‘how do you know who ends a piece?’ Basically, it’s a letting go of any preconceived ideas about what you are going to play, but to launch into it more with your ears in play than your head. You can trust in that. I guess it’s guided by the one who is most bursting to play or say something at that point. Once a sound is there, then there’s something to respond to. 

AM: So is it all about getting rid of ego?

TW: Well, that’s what we were supposedly about. Except that sometimes the person suggesting getting rid of ego, it turns out, usually had the biggest one!

AM: I saw you twice last year – once with Veryan Weston and the second time with Olie Brice. I wouldn’t call them tunes exactly (!) but it seemed to have more melodic continuity than the YouTube video I saw. 

TW: Well, that’s where I am now. You delve into all these areas and they do become part of you. But it doesn’t mean to say you have to play them forever. I’ve done a lot of different stuff. I had a string ensemble. I even wrote a choral piece – Thames Chamber Choir performed it.

AM: You’ve also been influenced by African music, and you’ve had a long-standing collaboration with Ghanaian percussionist Nana Tsiboe.

TW: I started two related groups in 1980 that were influenced by African music in various ways and included African musicians. One focused on improvising, one was more about the compositions. Eventually in 1990 these morphed into the Trevor Watts Moiré Music Drum Orchestra! The first incarnation in 1980 was Ernest Mothle (bass), Liam Genockey (drums), Peter Knight (Violin), Nana Tsiboe and Mamadi Kamara (African Perc) and myself (saxes). I didn’t ever call it an Afro thing. I never tried to play like an African saxophonist. It was the rhythmic thrust I was after. We became good friends just playing together. A few of these musicians have ended up living in Hastings! 

AM: Including HIP’s very own Colin Gibson! But again, this music’s very different to your 60s sound.

TW: Some people were a bit snobbish about the improvisational thing with African rhythm, saying it wasn’t proper improvisation. But there’s lots of ways of improvising. Those African guys were spontaneously moving rhythm around in so many ways.  

AM: You had phenomenal global success with this group.

TW: I toured globally with this group – South Africa, Botswana, USA, Mexico, Venezuela… We were the first group to play in Burma for about 15 years. Dancing was banned in the country so it happened behind closed doors. I also did an album on ECM in 1993, A Wider Embrace, with a version of this group. 
It was re-released last year – not in Europe, but for the South African market. I thought this was strange. But I later found out it was played in all the South African dance halls in the 90s! 

AM: So you were a free improv world-wide pop star!

TW: Ha, ha!

• Tune in for our final part next issue, where Trevor talks about keeping young and his plans for the future

• Read part one of this interview here
• Read part three of this interview here